Go Back   Soundsonline-Forums > Topics > Hardware
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:23 PM
eastwest7 eastwest7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 39
eastwest7 is on a distinguished road
Default Disabled Templates/Templates with Logic Pro 9 - Ideas

Hello everyone, My name is Erick -

a)I am still using Logic Pro 9,
and I thought of a way to make a disabled Logic template by unloading the samples in the Play plug-in itself. This actually works like a disabled template setup until you close the Logic session, but once you open it back up and open up one of the instances of play it will not load up the samples again for any of the mic positions, even though that instrument is technically 'open' in Play.

So I can still get a similar result by only loading one mic position and then loading the other mic positions only as needed (which means less RAM and I can load more mic positions as needed which is not a big deal to me, just a few clicks away), but I wish I could disable the samples in the ram fully as other programs such as cubase, or digital performer, etc., can do.
All you can do in Logic Pro from what i understand is to disable the track itself which only frees up cpu, but the ram load remains.

Does anyone here know a work around for this? Any Ideas are welcome. It would be a really awesome improvement.
I am trying to brain storm myself to think of a decent workflow where I can get more tracks with a disabled set up in Logic Pro 9. I do not mind having to click to load the samples in play, I guess where I draw the line is having to go into play and search for the instrument and then load it for every instance (this is much more then one or two clicks and would be time consuming if you had to do it for any track you load in your template; I feel like at that point making the template kind of defeats the purpose of what I want to use a template for - a streamlined workflow.).

b)Also related to this is how much Ram headroom do you guys prefer to avoid spikes in the Ram where it makes your computer crash? When I look in activity monitor, at around 25-27gb of ram loaded the 'memory pressure' turns yellow and it feels like it could crash because at red it crashes and that is not too far away. Do you guys just stay out of the 'yellow'? Or is the 'yellow' pretty safe?

My setup: mid 2011 iMac quad core , 32gb Ram, 1tb ssd internal (sata 3 connection); logic pro 9; libraries I am using at the moment are Hollywood Orchestra, Symphonic choirs, and Storm Drum 3.

Any ideas or tips that improves the workflow/system capability will be much appreciated. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-21-2017, 09:10 AM
jspencer jspencer is offline
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada, Eh!
Posts: 3,712
jspencer is on a distinguished road
Default

Have you considered using VEPro to host your VI's? Not only will it distribute the the resources more efficiently (cores, etc), but you can preserve/decouple the instances as needed.

Are you loading directly into Ram, or have you set your cache (in the Pay settings) lower in order to stream more content? I prefer to keep the settings lower, but some like to load more (or all) into Ram.

Also, are you running everything from that single SSD? Ideally, the libraries should be located on their own dedicated drive(s) other than where the OS is loaded.
__________________
http://www.jeremyspencer.ca
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-21-2017, 09:21 PM
eastwest7 eastwest7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 39
eastwest7 is on a distinguished road
Default

1.Yes I have considered doing that, there are a lot of good things people say. How big of a help is VEpro on a single system? Have to be honest, not exactly sure how it works on a single system, I have done a little research, but do not quite understand it enough yet to know how it could actually help on a single system, so the learning curve is holding me back on this one and partly because I am trying to keep it more simple signal flow wise and just run everything in Logic if I can come up with a satisfying work flow.
Also at the moment I am unable to purchase a slave machine either, but maybe in the future if it is needed for some reason. How do you like the quality of the VE sounds?

2.Right now I have my cache for my internal ssd at "2"- I may play around with lowering it to 1 or 0 for more ram but after reading the manual I would consider my system to be maybe a little better than a mid range computer or at least in comparison to some of the beast computer setups others have it is (in comparison to 12cores/4ghz/128gb ram/slaves w/VEpro or something like that/SSD PCIe Drives - this may be a misconception); although I have the CCCPro 7200rpm HD as well which i think I will set either to "5" or more likely I will turn off "stream to disk" in the main menu and try to load up some of those all the way into the memory. I have had trouble in the past with streaming from HD, so if I can get those instruments into the RAM that would probably be ideal.

3.Yeah so I am running HOrchestra, Stormdrum3, and Symphonic Choirs all from my internal 1tb owc mercury extreme ssd w/sata 3 connection (so it is 6gb/s). I am breaking the rules a bit though because the drive is probably about 90-95% full. When I get another drive I will off-load some of these libraries to another external drive to free up some space. Actually this doesn't seem to be slowing down the drive very noticeably at all to me. Or maybe I am just not noticing the difference.
I also have the other libraries on the CCCPro HD.
Supposedly I can add up to 3 more internal drives in my iMac which i hope to do in the future to load separate orchestra sections/libraries on them. Do you know if anyone has figured out the ideal way to arrange the libraries between drives for streaming? I know everyone seems to say load the strings, brass, woodwinds, and percussion on separate drives for the HOrchestra libraries, but it would be cool to know if there is an optimal arrangement of these. I guess it would depend a lot on each individuals preference of what instruments they use and how many drives your are using in total. Maybe trying to distribute the libraries among the drives so they are streaming an even amount and none of them are being over worked? So it would seem to be a bit personal preference of how you choose to arrange them among the streaming drives now that I think about it. What do you think?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:34 PM
eastwest7 eastwest7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 39
eastwest7 is on a distinguished road
Default

Ok so after brainstorming on how I could make a disabled (instrument ram/cpu disabled, but easily loaded when needed) template in Logic I finally figured out a workaround (I think this would work in other DAWs with this problem too because the workaround is performed in the Play plugin itself). I have not seen anyone else mention this anywhere.

Here's what I do:
1.I load up my instruments to create a template but I disable all the mic positions for every instance of play and then I disable all of the Play Plugins to free up CPU (Option + Click Play Plugin). And then I save the template and/or session and close the session.
2.When I reopen the session if I want to use a instrument FIRST I will Enable the track (Option + Click Play Plugin), SECOND I simply open the plug in and on the articulations list I click activate for any articulations that exist on the screen (note: from my experience if there are multiple instruments of play open in one instance, for whatever reason, this will active the other instruments as well that are not showing [in the upper right hand box of the player] once you press the mic positions you want to load). THIRD I click whatever mic positions I want to load (in my case I like to load all mic positions).
3.After I program/or record the midi for a track, I will bounce an audio file under that track, name it, and then repeat the steps in step 1 to disable the plug in I was using and unload the microphone samples. Therein by being able to optimize the RAM an CPU again!
4.Repeat steps 2-3 until the entire peice of music is written

The benefits of this workflow:
-Optimize CPU and RAM usage manually without worry of crash/restart.
-You can use more intense instruments (the Powerful System instruments for example) since you are working one track at a time and then bouncing it to audio and disabling the plug in for more CPU and unloading the mic positions from the RAM.
-You have more RAM selection flexibility, so you may choose to keep some instruments loaded all the time, whereas other instruments you may only use for special occasions, so you can just load them manually whenever you want.
-You can load ALOT more tracks and mixing plug ins without a super amazing system because you only are using ram and cpu power for instruments you are currently using and any audio bounces you may have made (after you do a audio bounce you can disable the plug ins on the track you were using also to free up cpu, or you can even save a mixing preset with that track name and delete it to come back to it later. You may even be able to just keep them turned on too.).
-Since you leave your midi information you can always enable the track again and re-bounce the audio when ever it is needed for composition or mixing purposes.
-Since most plugins, and samples are unloaded a session with hundreds of tracks will still start up lightning fast, maybe 1 or 2 mins at most. (The waiting time will come every time you manually enable the track and load in the samples of that specific instrument.).

The drawbacks:
-It takes a bit longer to access a instrument because you have to take the time to enable the track and load the instrument into the RAM via articulation activation button and mic positions (see steps above). I think its possible to enable and load a track in about 5-20 sec at the most, so it shouldn't take too long to load the tracks as you need them if you have a capable computer system (one with the specs EastWest reccommends to run these libraries). So the workflow is a little less streamlined, but honestly it is not that bad to me, others may not want to do these workarounds all the time though.
-Having to bounce the audio files can limit your editing workflow and maybe become a bit annoying. Although this is unfortunate I think the positives greatly out weigh this concern, which is why it doesn't bug me too much.
-You cannot unload some libraries from the RAM in Play (for example, I am pretty sure you can not unload ALL of the mic positions in a Storm Drum 3 instrument-so these types of instruments will have to stay in the RAM I believe if you want to have them loaded in your template-at least in the scenario I am describing).

I think the more you get used to a template with a workflow like this it could become really quick, and you are getting all the benefits of being able to load hundreds of tracks into a template on a 32gb system. Also I think each individual trying this would have to experience it and fine tune it for themselves (especially when it comes to choosing which tracks to keep loaded in the RAM, and figuring out when and how to bounce individual tracks into audio without having to create too much fuss/hassle).

Hopefully other Logic users and other users have found this helpful, it took me two days of literally staring at the Play plugin and experimenting to figure out how to get these kinds of results without having to buy a new DAW, VEpro, or slave machines. I am guessing even on a 8gb or 16gb RAM system a workflow like this would greatly benefit those using some of the more RAM and CPU intensive libraries and instruments.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-22-2017, 07:26 AM
jspencer jspencer is offline
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada, Eh!
Posts: 3,712
jspencer is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwest7 View Post
1.Yes I have considered doing that, there are a lot of good things people say. How big of a help is VEpro on a single system? Have to be honest, not exactly sure how it works on a single system, I have done a little research, but do not quite understand it enough yet to know how it could actually help on a single system, so the learning curve is holding me back on this one and partly because I am trying to keep it more simple signal flow wise and just run everything in Logic if I can come up with a satisfying work flow.
Also at the moment I am unable to purchase a slave machine either, but maybe in the future if it is needed for some reason. How do you like the quality of the VE sounds?
By using VEPro in Logic, on a single machine, you are getting better core distribution. I have never used the VE sounds, so I can't comment on that. But I host all of my VI's inside VEPro on both master and slave.

You really should consider placing your libraries on separate drives, especially Hollywood Orchestra. You will certainly experience performance gains.

Your idea is interesting, but IMO seems like a real hassle. I prefer having a 100+ track template fully loaded so it's all ready to go, even between projects (in VEPro, it all remains loaded).
__________________
http://www.jeremyspencer.ca
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-23-2017, 06:23 AM
eastwest7 eastwest7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 39
eastwest7 is on a distinguished road
Default

Thanks for the info, yeah I may try that out in the future, and the drives are a definite upgrade-l want to put in some more internal SSD drives(hopefully 3) + with the two thunderbolt ports on my iMac I was thinking about adding 1 or 2 extra PCIe ssds into those for streaming and more storage as well.

About the workflow I think it can molded to where there isn't much hassle. Yet hassle is a matter of preference, perspective, & definition-so everyone has their own view on this. Obviously my idea is more hassle then having everything loaded & ready to go, I agree what you say is the ideal setup-to have everything loaded up. There is a give and take in the workflow: the more tracks you disable, the more you can have ready to load into your session, but also the more you will have to load manually when you decide to use them; the less tracks you disable, the less tracks you get in the template, but they are already loaded so its quicker to get composing.

Two improvements workflow improvements I thought of today were to have a "hybrid disabled template" where some tracks are disabled and some are not, so that way the common/fav instruments you may use for composition are loaded from the start and other tracks can be added manually into the orchestration later, so you still free up a lot of cpu and ram resources for use, but also have the benefit of having loaded tracks to use. An example would be to load 40-70 tracks and have the rest disabled or something. Or you can do what ever ratio is preferable to you (examples: a 40 loaded, 180 unloaded; 70 loaded, 150 unloaded, 100 loaded, 50 unloaded; etc. ).
But anyways, I totally get your concern of the 'hassle', it is def not for everyone. For me its not too bad I guess because in my mind its just option + click, click to open, a few more quick clicks and, bam, its loaded in about 10-20secs usually if you load from a ssd. And yeah if one doesn't like or even need that sort of thing then I would not recommend using it. I think if one doesn't mind that kind of workflow it is really practical. On my computer I lowered my loaded RAM from 27gb to 19gb and at the same time increased my track count of the template from 150 to 255! - so its a lower RAM load, maxed out the tracks in Logic Pro 9, it is easier on the CPU, and I think not too bad of a workflow-it is pretty quick once you get used to it. As I say though, I think a hybrid version of this setup may be the way to go in the end, so for instance you can have some of your fav instruments loaded and at the helm ready, but still have a number of tracks disabled to really free up the ram and cpu. Ultimately I think the Master Slave system sounds like the ideal with everything loaded, but if you don't have the resources or $ for that right away this can be a useful alternative on a 4gb-32gb ram computer with weaker cpu 2.4-2.8...
Also was thinking in general this technique could be used to free up RAM in a crunch if you have no other way to do so-esp. for the big Hollywood Insts.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-23-2017, 05:11 PM
trumpoz's Avatar
trumpoz trumpoz is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,740
trumpoz is on a distinguished road
Default

Im not a mac user. That being said - check out Jay Ashers setup. He is a certified Logic Pro trainer and published author on Logic and of course a fantastic and succesful musician. He is on record on numerous forums promoting VEPro on a single mac to overcome the core distribution in Logic.

Interesting note he also runs an iMac as the master and until recently had a high specd PC slabe computer. He sold the slave computer in anticipation of only using 1 iMac when the new model is released.

Im about to build a 64gb slave pc and that will run HO with 2 mic positions and the rest of my template with plenty of juice to spare.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-24-2017, 07:05 AM
Jay Asher's Avatar
Jay Asher Jay Asher is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 526
Jay Asher is on a distinguished road
Default

Thanks for the plug, Trumpoz.
__________________
Jay Asher, Composer & Logic Pro consultant
jay@jayasher.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:24 PM
eastwest7 eastwest7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 39
eastwest7 is on a distinguished road
Default

Hey guys, yeah good to know some one has a nice setup with one iMac, thanks for the info trumpoz. I will check that out. That sounds like a really cool setup you will have there.

Update on the setup idea I have been using: Certain libraries do not allow you to unload the samples, close the session, and reopen the session and load them again, I do not think there is a workaround for this. In Storm Drum 3 for instance there is no place to unload all of the mic positions, so you have to keep one loaded at all times if you open an instrument in that library... Another case is in Ghostwriter - you can unload the samples, but if you shut down the session, and then open that instrument you cannot reload the samples because there is no master mic position load/unload like there is on Hollywood Orchestra and Symphonic Orchestra. My "trick" seems to work best with HO and SO. I also noticed that with certain multi patches of symphonic choirs - like "mens hard mod" or 'womens hard mod' or the vota multis- if you disable the mic positions and save the session, they will actually load up anyway the next time you load up the session, so again it works really consistent and good with HO and SO instruments across the board but with other libraries it is on a case by case basis of how well this will function. Anyways as a whole I enjoy the workflow.

I can bounce out one part at a time whenever I want to free up ram/cpu. I SOLO a track I am finished with and do a REAL TIME bounce to avoid dropped notes, in the top I make a cycle as long as the length of the midi section (some times a little longer for the tail of the audio - just depends). The file turns up in the audio bin and I just pull the file from the bin onto an audio track lined up under my midi file. [I have 255 Software instrument tracks that are ready to be loaded and 255 potentially more audio tracks I can add under a software instrument when I need to. Also specific instruments groups have separate buses which turns out to be about 16 separate buses, leaving about 40 more buses available if needed]. After it is bounced I can unload the samples of the instrument I was bouncing to free up RAM and disable the track to free up CPU. I may do it for 1-20 tracks (one at a time) depending on how I want to work (if I want to keep more tracks loaded into the RAM or not will determine the workflow here). Once the bounces are made I can continue to compose with other software instruments via midi until I want to bounce again. The bouncing is nice because it forces you to make some instinctive decisions (about velocity, modulation, expression, mixing, etc.), but you can always go back and work with the midi again if there was any problems later. Lastly if you desire to use any instruments again that you already used previously you can just re-enable them and load up the mic samples you want and continue composing on the same midi track, and when you eventually bounce the new part you can pull that audio from the bin into the same audio track you had under the midi track you used initially - so you only need one audio track under any midi track/software instrument you use.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-13-2017, 03:06 PM
eastwest7 eastwest7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 39
eastwest7 is on a distinguished road
Default

Found this article by Mr.Asher, pretty cool:

https://ask.audio/articles/to-templa...s-the-question
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.