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Old 05-05-2019, 03:05 PM
newew newew is offline
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Default Help me understand CC1 & CC11 for Niente instruments.

I've loaded up "Sus 9 RR 4th pos Ni" from 1st Violins > 01 Long from HS Diamond

to get to know CC1 & CC11 on the Niente instruments for non-powerful systems.

In the Hollywood Strings manual, page 36, it says:

“Niente” Instruments
For instruments in other folders (01 and 05–08): Because these instruments are smaller, CC 1 (the Mod Wheel) controls the cross-fade of both vibrato and dynamics at the same time. CC 11 (Expression) performs global volume control. What is different about the “Niente”versions is that CC 1 can bring the volume all the way to zero in addition to cross-fading dynamics and vibrato.


To me this says that CC1 controls both vibrato and volume, so anytime Mod Wheel (CC1) goes to zero, so should the volume of the instrument. But it won't, or at least doesn't always, for me.

I mocked up the MIDI in the attached image. All zones work the way I would expect from my understanding of the manual - except zones A, B & H.

In A & H I would expect silence, since CC1 is zero there. Instead, in A I get a constant 100-level (CC11 is set to 100 here) volume with no vibrato, and in H I get an increasing volume with no vibrato. The no vibrato makes perfect sense to me, since CC1 is zero, but shouldn't volume be zero also?

Then in B, I get constant 100-level volume with increasing vibrato. Again, the increasing vibrato makes sense, but shouldn't the volume be changing also?

Strangely, the patch "1 NV NV NV VB RR Ni" from the same folder behaves exactly as expected for the same MIDI clip. That is, silence in A, increasing volume with vibrato at the top volume in B, and silence in H.

What have I not properly understood?

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:07 AM
Dominik Raab Dominik Raab is offline
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I might be wrong, but I think the 4th position longs have separate vibrato control (CC#1 Vibrato, CC#11 Dynamics) even in their non-powerful variants, while the KSFP and the ones with vibrato styles in their names (NV NV NV VB, etc.) do not.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:43 AM
newew newew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominik Raab View Post
I might be wrong, but I think the 4th position longs have separate vibrato control (CC#1 Vibrato, CC#11 Dynamics) even in their non-powerful variants, while the KSFP and the ones with vibrato styles in their names (NV NV NV VB, etc.) do not.
Appreciate the feedback. I haven't found anywhere in the manual that says this, but certainly that's how it's working. So, in absence of a more definitive answer, it sounds like I should give more weight to this passage from the next page:

"In general, if you find that an instrument is not responding to one of the ways of specifying loudness, even in instruments where it’s not mentioned, investigate using other means to get the dynamics you’re looking for."

At least that suggests it's not that I've completely misunderstood how it's supposed to work.

Does an authoritative table of the articulations and their CC controls exist?
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:35 AM
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peter5992 peter5992 is offline
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Hm ... it's funny, I just loaded the same patch (1st violins sus 9 RR 4th pos Ni), for me it works as described in the manual:

- mod wheel controls vibrato
- expression pedal controls dynamics, all the way from niente (zero) to ff

Same way as the patches in the "Powerful System" folder which are my default sustained strings.

The tables on pp 37 and following provide an overview of what is available, and one of the forum members put together a 'big picture' overview of all cc articulations across the Hollywood orchestra series. That's a useful thing to print out and have handy. The way eg mod wheel controls is not completely consistent across the series, eg it controls dynamics for the 6FH horns, but vibrato for the long strings. These are little idiosyncracies, you'll get used to them.

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/s...ad.php?t=54336
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:55 AM
newew newew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
Hm ... it's funny, I just loaded the same patch (1st violins sus 9 RR 4th pos Ni), for me it works as described in the manual:
The mystery deepens. I will try it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
...one of the forum members put together a 'big picture' overview of all cc articulations across the Hollywood orchestra series.
Nice resource. Thanks to you for pointing it out and to the OP for making it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
These are little idiosyncracies, you'll get used to them.
Working on it!
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Old 05-07-2019, 04:27 PM
Dominik Raab Dominik Raab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
Hm ... it's funny, I just loaded the same patch (1st violins sus 9 RR 4th pos Ni), for me it works as described in the manual:

- mod wheel controls vibrato
- expression pedal controls dynamics, all the way from niente (zero) to ff

Same way as the patches in the "Powerful System" folder which are my default sustained strings.
I think there might be a misunderstanding here - unless I'm misunderstanding, in which case I'll only add to the confusion. Apologies.

What you're describing (vibrato and dynamics separate) is exactly what newew describes in their opening post. You added, "it works as described in the manual," but that's exactly not what's in the manual.

The manual says that powerful patches have this separations, while patches from all other folders do not. Yet, this patch is not in the powerful folder. It's the only non-powerful patch (as far as I know) that has this separation. I'm personally happy there's a non-powerful patch that does this, but it can be confusing.

Newew and you are in agreement about how the patch works. The misunderstanding lies in the manual part. Like newew said, the manual claims that only powerful patches have this separation of vibrato and dynamics.

From the manual, pages 35--36:

Quote:
For those in the Powerful Systems folders [...] these patches use CC 11 (Expression) to cross-fade dynamics and CC 1 (the Mod Wheel) to cross-fade the depth of the vibrato.

[...]

For instruments in other folders [...] CC 1 (the Mod Wheel) controls the cross-fade of both vibrato and dynamics at the same time.
Sus 9 RR 4th pos Ni does not adhere to these paragraphs.
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Old 05-07-2019, 06:53 PM
newew newew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominik Raab View Post
I think there might be a misunderstanding here ...
Oh my - you are absolutely right, and it is I who added to the confusion by not catching the discord between "works as described in the manual" and the rest.

On the contrary, thank you to peter for taking the trouble to test and confirm that 1st violins sus 9 RR 4th pos Ni works as I described for him too - but this is not the way the manual says it should.

And this confirms again, to my reassurance, that it really is how it works and not just that I had misunderstood how it works. So thanks to both of you for that too.

Exceptions to the rules keep life interesting.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:46 PM
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peter5992 peter5992 is offline
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Time to rewrite the manual!

John Philpit ... where are you?
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