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  #11  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:23 AM
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LMW LMW is offline
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I started coding around 1965 on IBM 7094s
I googled the IBM 7094 ... "The first 7090 installation was in November 1959.
In 1960, a typical system sold for $2.9 million (equivalent to $18 million in 2017)
or could be rented for $63,500 a month (equivalent to $405,000 in 2016)." - Wikipedia (link)
And there was me griping about the cost of upgrading my (back-up) drives.

Looks cool, though ...


OK, back on topic ...

I think it was the first Cakewalk for Windows, and it still runs fine on my air-gapped Windows XP desktop.
While technically, the Play engine will run on the WIN XP, I suggest using your WIN10 machine.
WIN XP 32-bit would only allow Play v4.3.5 to run, WIN XP 64-bit would also allow our
latest Play versions, but we don't exactly test them extensively anymore.

if I go ahead with this project, I think I’ll just get the latest 64-bit version.
I'd definitely recommend getting the latest Cakewalk. You can get the latest
version of it here: https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk
For Sonar: https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Try-SONAR

Apparently - something I didn't know yesterday - there is a difference between
Cakewalk and Sonar. Cakewalk, the company, also released Cakewalk, the DAW
in addition to it's previous Sonar. This is a bit confusing.

Here is a comparison sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...zKA/edit#gid=0

The manuals are all available online now:
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/Home

I see you have a minimum requirement of 8 GB, so this might be my excuse to buy a new machine.
Your currently specifications are, and please correct me:

OS: WIN 10 - My second favorite OS to date. Works perfectly fine with Play.
RAM: 4GB - Barely enough. ThE OS will take 1GB? The Play engine will also require
a certain amount; ~200MB for Play 4, ~1,3GB for Play 6. Adding on to that, you'll still
need to load the patches. Depending on the ones you're loading, that will easily fill up
the RAM. Not to forget, that each track will require it's own patch. So with multiple
tracks loaded, you'll very quickly run out of RAM.

Depending on your machine, you could also just upgrade your RAM stick or purchase
another one. Though this is highly dependent on your motherboard and the amount
of slots available.

CPU: ??? - Well ... see the minimum requirements.
HDD: ??? - You say you have TB. Are those the OS drive? What's the rpm rate?
5400/7200rpm? SSD? How is it connected?

I see you have a minimum requirement of 8 GB, so this might be my excuse to buy a new machine.
Yeah ... I'd say that's a good idea.

If you have any questions on the machine, please ask.
Note: It's best to have a 7200rpm / SSD / non OS drive
for the samples.

On the other hand, if you need that much RAM for performance purposes, maybe
I don’t need as much, since other than short-interval sound checks, I am not interested
in real-time performance, rather my intention is to get everything into wave files
for downstream mixing. Thoughts?

There are a few things that you can do to lessen the load on RAM and CPU.
  • Purging Samples (p. 58) - Sample Purge is found in the Main Menu under
    Sample Purge. This set of options allow you to free up system resources
    in large projects by removing unused samples from memory. This can be one
    across all instruments, or on a per-instrument basis.
  • Sample Cache (p. 60) - The new Sample Cache feature is the most important
    feature in this menu. As a general rule, find the lowest setting that also
    results in smooth playback. If dropped voices or CPU spikes occur, simply
    raise the ‘Cache Level’
  • http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/d...ser-Manual.pdf

A .wav files cannot be worked with as directly in the Play window / the DAW.
CC data controls and modulates the sounds depending on what you're using.
Short-interval sound-checks are no longer possible.
With VSTis in general, you require live performance of RAM and CPU.

Imagine the difference between a flat / emotionless "aah" and an expressive / emotive "aah".
Which one would you prefer to have in the final mix-down? To achieve the latter,
you would have to work with it. Only in the end would you export to audio
and then from there mix the project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jspencer View Post
And are you using a dedicated soundcard or audio interface?
Jeremy, as always, loves his audio interfaces. I definitely recommend reading
up on them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_...dio_interfaces

The Windows onboard audio devices aren't bad ... ok, they're crap ... but you'll
easily notice the difference. Especially with multiple tracks going on, you'll very quickly
notice that there are pops and clicks and other weird artefacts. An audio interface will help
with the processing.

The audio interface is one of the last pieces of equipment you can purchase, if you're willing
to try out your onboard soundcard, though you should calculate it into your budget. Prices
range anywhere from $100 to $2k+.
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Lorenz W. - EastWest Technical Support

Helpful links: Sample Path, Library Sizes, Tips and Tricks, On Harddrives, On DAWs
Hardware: OS W7 Pro, i7-4910MQ 2,9 GHz (Overclock to 3,9 GHz), 32GB RAM, int. 3TB 840 EVO SSDs,
ext. 1TB Samsung T1 + 6TB backup + UR22 Interface + Kawai MP7 (88 Keys) + Yamaha MS60S Speakers
Software: Cubase Pro 8.0.40, PLAY v6.X.X, EastWest et multi alii

Last edited by LMW; 07-25-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:15 AM
John Fowler John Fowler is offline
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Thanks for the clarification! So far I have no intuition for the functional and software boundaries between Play, SC, and WordBuilder. To me, they are some combination of capabilities in a VSTi that just looks like a MIDI device to Sonar (or whatever DAW is in use). The process of telling WorBuilder what vocalization pattern is desired was pretty well demonstrated in the online demos, and I do have all the manuals and have looked at them and done some word searches.

But apparently what I want to do with all this is a bit out of the mainstream compared to most users, and I want to be sure that I understand these capabilities well enough to make the considerable investment of time (and the money isnít negligible either) to take on such a project. Part of that involves being sure that I can, in non-real-time, get every syllable of the whole composition set up as desired with WordBuilder (each track separately, apparently), that once that is done, everything is memorized somewhere, perhaps partly in the DAW (i.e., the actual MIDI data) and partly somewhere in the VSTi (the vocalization definition), so that I can either play the entire piece in real-time performance, or I can generate wave files that contain exactly the same audio as what I hear in performance mode.

So, no. SC/Play doesn't buffer the music. You can change how the note that comes in in real-time is supposed to be treated

So Iím not quite there yet. Maybe the problem is what you mean by a ďnoteĒ. Surely not just a MIDI pitch number? That is, every time an E above middle C is triggered, the same WordBuilder syllable expresses that note? That E may occur a hundred times in a composition, each time with a different syllable intended. So I donít think thatís what you mean, but I donít see how Play/WordBuilder can tell the difference between two separate occurrences of that E without somehow buffering information about the entire track sequence.

Again, I have a guess about whatís reasonable to assume, but I donít want to guess when something this nontrivial is involved.

Thanks for your patience!

Regards, John
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  #13  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:49 AM
jspencer jspencer is offline
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Lol! I know, I know, I sound like a broken record....but a lot of the time that's the issue.

PS- I bet my iPhone has more power than that 65' IBM!
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  #14  
Old 07-24-2018, 01:15 PM
John Fowler John Fowler is offline
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I googled the IBM 7094 ... ....Looks cool, though ...

Thanks, it was nice to see the old girl again! The one I used at Goddard Space Flight Center was slaved to an IBM 7040. The combination was called a DCS (Direct Coupled System), with the 7040 handling the scheduling and the 7094 doing the heavy lifting. Soon after I got started, these were replaced with an IBM 360. There were several at the lab, but the one I used was a 360/91, and for a brief time it was (I was told) the hottest machine on the planet. It had a whopping 1 MB of fast core, and later they added an LCS (Large Core Storage) unit with 4 MB of ďslow coreĒ (access time was significantly longer than the main 1 MB). The LCS had a glass window through which you could see all the ďscreen doorsĒ with little ring-shaped cores at each intersection, 32 million of them. It blew our minds. I think the removable disk platters held around 10 MB each. We never thought it could get that good...

I can tell that the guys in this forum are fun to hang out with, but I hope we donít get in trouble with the administrators for going off-topic. I notice that the messages can get a little out of sync, so Iím going to wait a day or so for things to get caught up, then address recent remarks and generally continue making a nuisance of myself.

Regards, John
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  #15  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:09 PM
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LMW LMW is offline
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and I want to be sure that I understand these capabilities well enough to make
the considerable investment of time (and the money isn’t negligible either) to
take on such a project.

Understandable.

Now, just a suggestion, one which many have found quite useful before fully purchasing
the libraries: Go subscribe to the ComposerCloud.
If you do so via the red "Start your 30 days now" button at the top of the window,
you'll get a large discount on the first month, costing you only $14.99. And then
you can immediately login to your account and turn the AutoRenewal to OFF.
http://www.soundsonline.com/composercloud

I think we can explain it quite often enough, you can look at the videos, but nothing
will really beat a hands-on approach where you can actually try out the stuff!

Again, I have a guess about what’s reasonable to assume, but I don’t want
to guess when something this nontrivial is involved.

Now, I also don't want to guess or assume anything (ok, I'm gonna do it), but I think
the underlying point is exactly on how the VSTi - in this case Play (and the Wordbuilder) -
actually interacts with the DAW. A lot of the information is stored / saved to the DAW
and is then read and then live-processed when you hit the playback button.

Any time it's not playing back, you have the option to edit the individual options
which are available to you (Play window, MIDI, CC, etc.). I hope this make sense.
I have a "Tips and Tricks" link in my signature. The first follow-up link leads
to this thread (link). There are a lot of videos concerning DAWs / VSTis / MIDI
and how they're used.

Maybe the problem is what you mean by a “note”. Surely not just a MIDI pitch number?
With note, I mean everything - literally everthing!! - which is related to that one MIDI note.
This is the pitch, any and all CC data (CC 1: modulation, CC 7 volume, CC 11: expression, etc.),
the information which is located inside the Play window - Wordbuilder (the words and / or phrases,
how they correspond to the MIDI) and any other effects which you've added via the DAW itself.

The below picture is the piano-roll in Cakewalk. I've loaded a MIDI file into it.
What you currently see is mainly the MIDI notes themselves. In the lower part,
you'll see on the left-hand side the CC parameters. In this case "Velocity" is currently
selected, giving me the option to adjust the velocity parameters in the field next to it,
or directly below the MIDI notes.

Bonus Internet Points for whoever recognizes the song.



That is, every time an E above middle C is triggered, the same WordBuilder syllable expresses that note?
As you can see in the above picture. The MIDI notes are displayed so that the notes
on the vertical axis are played at the same time and on the horizontal axis are played
in chronological order. They are not played at the same time. Now, these MIDI notes
trigger the sample in the Play engine. Each and every single MIDI note has it's own
corresponding parameters. You can copy / paste them to another section, but the
one thing that will have definitely changed is the horizontal axis - the time at
which they are triggered.

I hope I'm getting my main point across properly.



OFFTOPIC: I can tell that the guys in this forum are fun to hang out with,
but I hope we don’t get in trouble with the administrators for going off-topic.

Nah, they're cool with that. And I'd also shut it down before it ever get's too far.
My Super-Mod status isn't for show. I mean, the main discussion is still music-related.
As long as you're polite, don't mention competitor products and don't hyperlink stuff,
then you're ok.

Well, I just gave out some internet points, so, what the heck.

The LCS had a glass window through which you could see all the “screen doors”
with little ring-shaped cores at each intersection, 32 million of them.

Wow, I actually want to see something like that. Sounds amazing.

so I’m going to wait a day or so for things to get caught up
I actually hope my short-novels here aren't deterring any from reading.

then address recent remarks and generally continue making a nuisance of myself.
Sure, go right ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jspencer View Post
PS- I bet my iPhone has more power than that 65' IBM!
I'm not gonna bet against you. Google anything like "Smartphone processing power vs 1960 PC"
and you'll get some amazing articles. I think I also found the source code for the lunar module.
I just love the internet.
__________________
Lorenz W. - EastWest Technical Support

Helpful links: Sample Path, Library Sizes, Tips and Tricks, On Harddrives, On DAWs
Hardware: OS W7 Pro, i7-4910MQ 2,9 GHz (Overclock to 3,9 GHz), 32GB RAM, int. 3TB 840 EVO SSDs,
ext. 1TB Samsung T1 + 6TB backup + UR22 Interface + Kawai MP7 (88 Keys) + Yamaha MS60S Speakers
Software: Cubase Pro 8.0.40, PLAY v6.X.X, EastWest et multi alii

Last edited by LMW; 07-25-2018 at 02:48 PM.
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  #16  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:13 PM
John Fowler John Fowler is offline
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I hope Iīm getting my main point across properly.

Yes, thanks for all the detail! I think I get how it is all used, and it seems to be what I would expect and hope, once I got the notion of a VSTi into my picture. I may have left some questions about my computer equipment unanswered, but I suspect that I will replace it all anyway if I proceed to set up my own local system to accommodate SC/HC/Play/WordBuilder.

Meanwhile thanks especially for the recommendation regarding ComposerCloud. I will definitely look into that. I need to finish some work on a project for which Iím consulting before I can get serious though. I want my schedule to be clear so that I can start monthly payments without feeling pressured to use the time Iím paying for.

jspencer would definitely win his bet. According to some websites, the ratios of processing speed and memory size are in the millions. But you should have seen those old punchcard sorters and duplicaters go!

By the way, congratulations on running as fine a forum as I have ever seen. Everyone has been great, and the capability of making synthesizers finally truly sing is a beautiful thing. I expect to be back before too long.

Regards, John
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